84 points by porridgeraisin 2 hours ago | 7 comments
buran77 59 minutes ago
> logic technology can extend for the first time below the 1 nm node, advancing the era of angstrom-level scaling, where dimensions approach the size of individual atoms. While transistor nodes now refer to a generation of manufacturing technology versus an exact physical dimension, IBM’s 0.7 nm technology—also referred to as 7 angstroms—demonstrates how continued scaling remains possible.

Continuing the well established trend of making bold claims about physical dimensions that have nothing to do with any of the structures in the chip, and the name scales better than the tech.

What they actually deliver is a "nanostack architecture" built with ~5nm features that according to them is comparable to a hypothetical real sub-1nm chip.

It's an impressive achievement nonetheless but it looks like the industry has a few too many marketers.

Legend2440 5 minutes ago
It's been decades since published node sizes had any connection to actual feature size. Sadly this is just how it works in the semiconductor industry now.
pseudosavant 33 minutes ago
My read on it was that they are trying to imply a transistor density (in a 2D plane sense) that is comparable to a 1nm process? But they achieve that through stacking (3D, not 2D) since the features aren't actually anywhere near 1nm?
makeitdouble 22 minutes ago
If they're adding a dimension, the marketing should reflect that.

I know they won't go for an anything that makes as much sense as 5nm3, so I vote for "1nm hyper space"

formerly_proven 13 minutes ago
> Continuing the well established trend of making bold claims about physical dimensions that have nothing to do with any of the structures in the chip, and the name scales better than the tech.

We care about PPA (power, performance, area) and not how large or not-large features actually are. Comparing gate lengths between a 1980s planar transistor and a 2010s 3D FinFET or GAA transistor is obviously nonsense, the relatively aligned node names of the industry actually do make sense as a shortcut here.

colechristensen 7 minutes ago
You have to admit it's getting progressively sillier though.
roflmaostc 29 minutes ago
yeah, where on the pictures is the 0.7nm feature? The linespacing is around 5nm. Is it the white line which is 0.7nm?
TallGuyShort 19 minutes ago
I really can't see where the 0.7nm is coming from. The white line looks like it's just an edge of a feature that is "15 rows of silicon atoms", which by some quick arithmetic on Wolfram Alpha has to be AT LEAST ~1.6nm, and the way the rows of atoms appear to be packed in that image and by the provided scale, it seems to be significantly more. Using the white line as a meaningful measurement seems to me to be more misleading than any other interpretation here.
wmf 1 minute ago
It's the equivalent performance of a 0.7 nm planar transistor. It's not about the feature size.
cyanydeez 51 minutes ago
On the otherhand, no investor really cares what it's called, they just need to know it's next gen.
50 minutes ago
throw0101d 7 minutes ago
One of the images has "15 rows of Si atoms".

Is there a limit to how small things can go? A single atom?

Is there a physical/molecular limit to Moore's Law?

colechristensen 0 minutes ago
I mean, you can't get smaller than an atom, there is some amount of plausibility of using individual atoms as at least the occasional computing element.

Beyond that, engineering a quark-gluon plasma as a processor? I'd watch that Star Trek episode. (we might fantasize about stuff like that but we're roughly monkeys smashing rocks together in a cave vs. building an iPhone sort of gap away from that kind of thing unless somebody has a really good idea)

petcat 58 minutes ago
> IBM and its partners conduct this work at a leading semiconductor research facility in Albany, New York, which will soon be home to a High Numerical Aperture Extreme Ultraviolet (High NA EUV) lithography tool, essential for the future of logic scaling. Developed by ASML, this technology enables ultra‑precise circuit printing, supporting the creation of smaller, more powerful chips.

I'm guessing that this is the technology that is developed by Cymer (ASML subsidiary) in California, correct? Is there competing technology? I know xLight is trying to make some inroads on their own version of this EUV tech. I have not heard about any progress though.

scrlk 29 minutes ago
Cymer builds the EUV light source, but the biggest enabler for High NA EUV is using anamorphic optics (ie asymmetric horizontal and vertical magnification) from Zeiss: https://www.asml.com/en/news/stories/2024/5-things-high-na-e...
porridgeraisin 30 minutes ago
Correct
giwook 1 hour ago
How does IBM commercialize this? Do they license this out to fabs?
topspin 14 minutes ago
> Do they license this out to fabs?

Broadly speaking yes, this is the business model. IBM has been at this for many years with technology transfers, licensing agreements, support and other arrangements. Rapidus, Samsung, GlobalFoundries, ST, SMIC, AMD, etc. have all used IBM R&D work at various times for various nodes and products.

The cutting edge of semiconductors is a writhing mass of copulating tapeworms, and IBM lives deep inside that ball. For IBM, what this means is that when you buy one of the ASML machines to make products with this process, you'll pay IBM for the knowledge and support to actually get it working, or give them a cut, or something else, TBD, as circumstances warrant.

drob518 30 minutes ago
I’m sure they will license it. It’s better for them if everyone in the industry can innovate on everything around it. All the process tech companies will make it more cost effective, for instance, which helps IBM as well.
wmf 1 hour ago
They licensed 2 nm to Rapidus so yes.
WaxProlix 1 hour ago
Sit on a patent and try to scrape earnings from others, maybe? That is, license or litigate.
evanjrowley 56 minutes ago
boost sales for their systems division, POWER CPUs, mainframes, maybe Quantum stuff
TallGuyShort 29 minutes ago
I always feel like I'm not quite getting quantum stuff no matter how much I read and learn: what does this advancement have to do with quantum computers?
applfanboysbgon 53 minutes ago
For anyone who needs it, a friendly reminder that CPU nm marketing is a complete fabrication and the physical size of transistors has zero relation to the marketing claims. These are not, in fact, physically sub 1 nm, despite the bombastic claims.
lp4v4n 27 minutes ago
>These are not, in fact, physically sub 1 nm, despite the bombastic claims.

Why? What's their real size?

Not doubting you, just trying to understand and also trying to assess how exaggerated the marketing is.

CAP_NET_ADMIN 11 minutes ago
At some point in the transistor scaling, the electrons started leaking across the gate, we've switched from 2D design to 3D structures to prevent that, so the actual physical gate pitch for like the TSMC 3nm is around 45 nm in distance.

Currently thrown around numbers mean the "equivalent performance/density" or something like that.

applfanboysbgon 15 minutes ago
They don't describe the exact physical size (that would rather defeat the point of the marketing), but you can see the photographs at the bottom have a scale measured in tens of nm.
wmf 32 minutes ago
The marketing nm better represent the density and performance of the transistors than the actual feature size, especially in this case.
micw 45 minutes ago
So the title should be corrected. The did not debut sub nm chips at all.
antisthenes 4 minutes ago
That ship sailed long ago. I think it was around 32nm-22nm node when the marketing term started diverging from the physical feature size.
ginko 1 hour ago
IBM regularly announces silicon breakthroughs like this but I'm not aware of those ever becoming products. Is IBM mainly in the business of licensing their technology to big silicon manufacturers with stuff like this? Is it just marketing for their consulting business?
vessenes 1 hour ago
My understanding is they are largely an IP business. That said this release mentioned an ASML machine on prem, so?
ijidak 1 hour ago
IBM's contributions to computing hardware and software are incalculable.

So many breakthroughs in hard drives, chips, transistor density, and other aspects of computing have come out of their labs.

Great to see them continuing to innovate.

But, yeah, usually they partner and license. Over the years, they've spun off more and more of their hardware businesses.

petra 9 minutes ago
It's great that they found a working business model for a pure r&d lab, and with such awesome results.

I wonder why isn't this more common.

bruckie 18 minutes ago
Don't forget copper interconnects for ICs. https://www.chiphistory.org/ibm-s-development-of-copper-inte...
AnimalMuppet 1 hour ago
I believe that IBM makes the chips for their Z Series mainframes. I mean, that's low volume production, but they need small feature size.
nradov 45 minutes ago
IBM Z series mainframe Telum CPUs are designed by IBM but manufactured by Samsung. IBM no longer owns any fabs. I assume they have some kind of technology licensing deal.

https://www.ibm.com/products/z/telum

ac29 25 minutes ago
> IBM no longer owns any fabs

Per IBM: "IBM Research at Albany [...] includes more than 100,000 square feet of semiconductor fabrication space"

I guess that is technically a R&D fab not a production one, but they definitely have in house fabrication capability

mxuribe 1 hour ago
A little bit of a nitpick, but wouldn't that be a picometer instead of angstrom node? Like, isn't a "pico-" the next magnitude smaller than "nano-", or am i wrong?

Otherwise, that chip tech sounds really awesome - at least for the future!

saulpw 48 minutes ago
There are 3 orders of magnitude between nano (^-9) and pico (^-12). An Angstrom is ^-10m.
1313ed01 26 minutes ago
Useless fact I just learned from Wikipedia: Ångström/Angstrom (in Sweden of course we still use the original spelling) has its own UNICODE symbol, Angstrom sign: Å (U+212B) not to confuse with the Swedish letter Å (U+00C5). Looks slightly different in my browser.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angstrom

nielsbot 12 minutes ago
Looks like that's deprecated. From the next sentence:

However, version 5 of the standard already deprecates that code point and has it normalized into the code for the Swedish letter U+00C5 Å `latin capital letter a with ring above`

mxuribe 40 minutes ago
Aaahhh, ok, thanks!
applfanboysbgon 32 minutes ago
You had the right idea. Angstroms are not an SI unit. The SI units jump by three orders of magnitude at this scale: picometer, nanometer, micrometer, millimeter.

(In the same way that meter jumps three orders of magnitude to kilometer[1], or millions to billions to trillions, etc.)

[1] Technically there are intermediate SI units between meter and km but nobody uses them. There are not intermediate SI units between the tiny ones.

SoftTalker 21 minutes ago
Why above 1mm do we go by tens instead of thousands?

We have centimeter (10 mm) then decimeter (100mm) then meter (1000mm). Then we jump to thousand again (kilometer).

floxy 10 minutes ago
>We have centimeter (10 mm) then decimeter (100mm)

Does anyone actually use those? I think I would throw up a little in my mouth if I saw either of those on a mechanical drawing.

applfanboysbgon 9 minutes ago
Everyday necessity. The gap between mm and m is too large, there are many things in daily life that are better expressed in cm. SI units must strike a balance between three factors: not having so many denominations nobody can remember them; not having so few denominations that using them adds too much wordiness to daily life (150mm or 0.15m are wordier than 15cm); and a degree of familiarity with the everyday units people used before metric, to smooth the transition and encourage adoption.
Romario77 20 minutes ago
Because 1 angstrom equals 10⁻¹⁰ meters and 1 picometer equals 10⁻¹² meters, the relationship is:

1 Å = 100 pm. 1 pm = 0.01 Å.

TallGuyShort 27 minutes ago
1 picometer = 0.001 nanometers, 0.01 angstrom

1 angstrom = 0.1 nanometers, 100 picometers

1 nanometer = 10 angstroms, 1000 picometers