<<<<<<< left
||||||| base
def calculate(x):
a = x * 2
b = a + 1
return b
=======
def calculate(x):
a = x * 2
logger.debug(f"a={a}")
b = a + 1
return b
>>>>>>> right
Something like base, that is "common base", looks far more apt to my mind. In the same vein, endogenous/exogenous would be far more precise, or at least aligned with the concern at stake. Maybe "local/alien" might be a less pompous vocabulary to convey the same idea.
ours means what is in my local codebase.
theirs means what is being merged into my local codebase.
I find it best to avoid merge conflicts than to try to resolve them. Strategies that keep branches short lived and frequently merging main into them helps a lot.
What if I'm rebasing a branch onto another? Is "ours" the branch being rebased, or the other one? Or if I'm applying a stash?
Just checkout the branch you are merging/rebasing into before doing it.
> Or if I'm applying a stash?
The stash is in that case effectively a remote branch you are merging into your local codebase. ours is your local, theirs is the stash.
As a bonus I can then also merge the feature branch into main as a squash commit, ditching the history of a feature branch for one large commit that implements the feature. There is no point in having half implemented and/or buggy commits from the feature branch clogging up my main history. Nobody should ever need to revert main to that state and if I really really need to look at that particular code commit I can still find it in the feature branch history.
i have a branch and i want to merge that branch into main.
is ours the branch and main theirs? or is ours main, and the branch theirs?
git checkout mybranch
git rebase main
I suspect that this could be because the rebase command is implemented as a serie of merges/cherry-picks from the target branch.
git checkout mybranch
git rebase main
That answer is "It depends on the context"
> The reason the "ours" and "theirs" notions get swapped around during rebase is that rebase works by doing a series of cherry-picks, into an anonymous branch (detached HEAD mode). The target branch is the anonymous branch, and the merge-from branch is your original (pre-rebase) branch: so "--ours" means the anonymous one rebase is building while "--theirs" means "our branch being rebased".[0]
[0] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/25576415/what-is-the-pre...
What you really need is the ability to diff the base and "ours" or "theirs". I've found most different UIs can't do this. VSCode can, but it's difficult to get to.
I haven't tried p4merge though - if it can do that I'm sold!
For some reason, when it comes to this subject, most people don't think about the problem as much as they think they've thought about it.
I recently listened to an episode on a well-liked and respected podcast featuring a guest there to talk about version control systems—including their own new one they were there to promote—and what factors make their industry different from other subfields of software development, and why a new approach to version control was needed. They came across as thoughtful but exasperated with the status quo and brought up issues worthy of consideration while mostly sticking to high-level claims. But after something like a half hour or 45 minutes into the episode, as they were preparing to descend from the high level and get into the nitty gritty of their new VCS, they made an offhand comment contrasting its abilities with Git's, referencing Git's approach/design wrt how it "stores diffs" between revisions of a file. I was bowled over.
For someone to be in that position and not have done even a cursory amount of research before embarking on a months (years) long project to design, implement, and then go on the talk circuit to present their VCS really highlighted that the familiar strain of NIH is still alive, even in the current era where it's become a norm for people to be downright resistant to writing a couple dozen lines of code themselves if there is no existing package to import from NPM/Cargo/PyPI/whatever that purports to solve the problem.
I also use the merge tool of JetBrains IDEs such as IntelliJ IDEA (https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/resolve-conflicts.html#r...) when working in those IDEs. It uses a three-pane view, not a four-pane view, but there is a menu that allows you to easily open a comparison between any two of the four versions of the file in a new window, so I find it similarly efficient.
No matter the tool, merges should always be presented like that. It's the only presentation that makes sense.
Addendum: I've since long disabled it. A and B changes are enough for me, especially as I rebase instead of merging.
I assume the proposed system addresses it somehow but I don't see it in my quick read of this.
the key insight is that changes should be flagged as conflicting when they touch each other, giving you informative conflict presentation on top of a system which never actually fails.
The big red block seems the same as "flagged", unless I'm misunderstanding something
It'll fire on merge issues that aren't code problems under a smarter merge, while also missing all the things that merge OK but introduce deeper issues.
Post-merge syntax checks are better for that purpose.
And imminently: agent-based sanity-checks of preserved intent – operating on a logically-whole result file, without merge-tool cruft. Perhaps at higher intensity when line-overlaps – or even more-meaningful hints of cross-purposes – are present.
That has not been my experience at all. The changes you introduced is your responsibility. If you synchronizes your working tree to the source of truth, you need to evaluate your patch again whether it introduces conflict or not. In this case a conflict is a nice signal to know where someone has interacted with files you've touched and possibly change their semantics. The pros are substantial, and it's quite easy to resolve conflicts that's only due to syntastic changes (whitespace, formatting, equivalent statement,...)
Sure, that works – like having one (rare, expensive) savant engineer apply & review everything in a linear canonical order. But that's not as competitive & scalable as flows more tolerant of many independent coders/agents.
FWIW I've struggled to get AI tools to handle merge conflicts well (especially rebase) for the same underlying reason.
I realized recently that I've subconsciously routed-around merge conflicts as much as possible. My process has just subtly altered to make them less likely. To the point of which seeing a 3-way merge feels jarring. It's really only taking on AI tools that bought this to my attention.
Technically you could include conflict markers in your commits but I don't think people like that very much
True but it is not valid syntax. Like, you mean with the conflict lines?
Because of that, I think it is worse than “but it is not valid syntax”; it’s “but it may not be valid syntax”. A merge may create a result that compiles but that neither of the parties involved intended to write.
In the example in the article, the inserted line from the right change is floating because the function it was in from the left has been deleted. That's the state of the file, it has the line that has been inserted and it does not have the lines that were deleted, it contains both conflicting changes.
So in that example you indeed must resolve it if you want your program to compile, because the changes together produce something that does not function. But there is no state about the conflict being stored in the file.
In the general case, such commits cannot be considered the same — consider a commit which flips a boolean that one branch had flipped in another file. But there are common cases where the commits should be considered equivalent, such as many rebased branches. Can the CRDT approach help with e.g. deciding that `git branch -d BRANCH` should succeed when a rebased version of BRANCH has been merged?
The semantic problem with conflicts exists either way. You get a consistent outcome and a slightly better description of the conflict, but in a way that possibly interleaves changes, which I don't think is an improvement at all.
I am completely rebase-pilled. I believe merge commits should be avoided at all costs, every commit should be a fast forward commit, and a unit of work that can be rolled back in isolation. And also all commits should be small. Gitflow is an anti-pattern and should be avoided. Long-running branches are for patch releases, not for feature development.
I don't think this is the future of VCS.
Jujutsu (and Gerrit) solves a real git problem - multiple revisions of a change. That's one that creates pain in git when you have a chain of commits you need to rebase based on feedback.
This is in contrast with [Pijul](https://pijul.org) where changes are patches and are commutative -- you can apply an entire set and the result is supposed to be equivalent regardless of the order the patches are applied in. Now _that_ is unit of work" I understand can be applied and undone in "isolation".
Everything else is messy, in my eyes, but perhaps it's orderly to other people. I mean it would be nice if a software system defined with code could be expressed with a set of independent patches where each patch is "atomic" and a feature or a fix etc, to the degree it is possible. With Git, that's a near-impossibility _in the graph_ -- sure you can cherry-pick or rebase a set of commits that belong to a feature (normally on a feature branch), but _why_?
The delta is the important thing. Git is deficient in this respect; it doesn't model a delta. Git hashes identify the tip of a tree.
When you rebase, you ought to be rebasing the change, the unit of work, a thing with an identity separate and independent of where it is based from.
And this is something that the jujutsu / Gerrit model fixes.
Merge commits from main into a feature branch are totally fine and easier to do than rebasing. After your feature branch is complete you can do one final main-to-feature-branch merge and then merge the feature branch into main with a squash commit.
When updating any branch from remote, I always do a pull rebase to avoid merge commits from a simple pull. This works well 99.99% of the time since what I have changed vs what the remote has changed is obvious to me.
When I work on a project with a dev branch I treat feature branches as coming off dev instead of main. In this case I merge dev into feature branches, then merge feature branches into dev via a squash commit, and then merge main into dev and dev into main as the final step. This way I have a few merge commits on dev and main but only when there is something like an emergency fix that happens on main.
The problem with always using a rebase is that you have to reconcile conflicts at every commit along the way instead of just the final result. That can be a lot more work for commits that will never actually be used to run the code and can in fact mess up your history. Think of it like this:
1. You create branch foo off main.
2. You make an emergency commit to main called X.
3. You create commits A, B, and C on foo to do your feature work. The feature is now complete.
4. You rebase foo off main and have to resolve the conflict introduced by X happening before A. Let’s say it conflicts with all three of your commits (A, B, and C).
5. You can now merge foo into main with it being a fast forward commit.
Notice that at no point will you want to run the codebase such that it has commits XA or XAB. You only want to run it as XABC. In fact you won’t even test if your code works in the state XA or XAB so there is little point in having those checkpoints. You care about three states: main before any of this happened since it was deployed like that, main + X since it was deployed like that, and main with XABC since you added a feature. git blame is really the only time you will ever possibly look at commits A and B individually and even then the utility of it is so limited it isn’t worth it.
The reality is that if you only want fast forward commits, chances are you are doing very little to go back and extract code out of old versions a of the codebase. You can tell this by asking yourself: “if I deleted all my git history from main and have just the current state + feature branches off it, will anything bad happen to my production system?” If not, you are not really doing most of what git can do (which is a good thing).
Instead, if the feature doesn't work without the full chain of A+B+C, either the code introduced in A+B is orphaned except by tests and C joins it in; or (and preferably for a feature of any significance), A introduces a feature flag which disables it, and a subsequent commit D removes the feature flag, after it is turned on at a time separate to merge and deploy.
Just like you don’t expect someone else’s local codebase to always be in a fully working state since they are actively working on it, why do you expect their working branch to be in a working state?
Codeville also used a weave for storage and merge, a concept that originated with SCCS (and thence into Teamware and BitKeeper).
Codeville predates the introduction of CRDTs by almost a decade, and at least on the face of it the two concepts seem like a natural fit.
It was always kind of difficult to argue that weaves produced unambiguously better merge results (and more limited conflicts) than the more heuristically driven approaches of git, Mercurial, et al, because the edit histories required to produce test cases were difficult (at least for me) to reason about.
I like that Bram hasn’t let go of the problem, and is still trying out new ideas in the space.
This means that everything that implements eventual consistency (including Git) is using "a CRDT".
> ... CRDTs for version control, which is long overdue but hasn’t happened yet
Pijul happened and it has hundreds - perhaps thousands - of hours of real expert developer's toil put in it.
Not that Bram is not one of those, but the post reads like you all know what.
You would think that if a better, more sound model of storing patches is your whole selling point, you would want to make as easy as possible for people who are interested in the project to actually understand it. It is really weird not to care about the first impression that your manual makes on a curious reader.
Currently, I'm about 6 years into the experiment.
Approximately 2 years in (about 4 years ago), I've actually went to the Pijul Nest and reported [1] the issue. I got an explanation on fixing this issue locally, but weirly enough, the fix still wasn't actually implemented on the public version.
I'll report back in about a year with an update on the experiment.
On the contrary, I think this is an all-too-familiar pitfall for the, er... technically minded.
"I've implemented it in the code. My work here is done. The rest is window dressing."
... and of course it is, because Pijul uses Pijul for development, not Git and GitHub!
I'm surprised! Pijul has been discussed here on HN many, many times. My impression is that many people here were hoping that Pijul might eventually become a serious Git contender but these days people seem to be more excited about Jujutsu, likely because migration is much easier.
From time to time, I do a 'pijul pull -a' into the pijul source tree, and I get a conflict (no local work on my part). Is there a way to do a tracking update pull? I didn't see one, so I toss the repo and reclone. What works for you in tracking what's going on there?
But "bare" is part of the value of Cohen's post, I think. When you want to publicize a paradigm shift, it helps to make it in small, digestible chunks.
It’s an awesome weekend project, you can have fun visualizing commits in different ways (I’m experimenting with shaders), and importantly:
This is the way forward. So much software is a wrapper around S3 etc. now is your chance to make your own toolset.
I imagine this appeals more to DIYer types (I use Pulsar IDE lol)
Anyway, I wanted to suggest a radical idea based on my experience:
Merges are the wrong primitive.
What organizations (whethr centralized or distributed projects) might actually need is:
1) Graph Database - of Streams and Relations
2) Governance per Stream - eg ACLs
A code base should be automatically turned into a graph database (functions calling other functions, accessing configs etc) so we know exactly what affects what.
The concept of what is “too near” each other mentioned in the article is not necessarily what leads to conflicts. Conflicts actually happen due to conflicting graph topology and propagating changes.
People should be able to clone some stream (with permission) and each stream (node in the graph) can be versioned.
Forking should happen into workspaces. Workspaces can be GOVERNED. Publishing some version of a stream just means relating it to your stream. Some people might publish one version, others another.
Rebasing is a first-class primitive, rather than a form of merging. A merge is an extremely privileged operation from a governance point of view, where some actor can just “push” (or “merge”) thousands of commits. The more commits, the more chance of conflicts.
The same problem occurs with CRDTs. I like CRDTs, but reconciling a big netsplit will result in merging strategies that create lots of unintended semantic side effects.
Instead, what if each individual stream was guarded by policies, there was a rate limit of changes, and people / AIs rejected most proposals. But occasionally they allow it with M of N sign offs.
Think of chatgpt chats that are used to modify evolving artifacts. People and bots working together. The artifacts are streams. And yes, this can even be done for codebases. It isnt about how “near” things are in a file. Rather it is about whether there is a conflict on a graph. When I modify a specific function or variable, the system knows all of its callers downstream. This is true for many other things besides coding too. We can also have AI workflows running 24/7 to try out experiments as a swarm in sandboxes, generate tests and commit the results that pass. But ultimately, each organization determines whether they want to rebase their stream relations to the next version of something or not.
That is what I’m building now with https://safebots.ai
- What kind of problems do 1 person, 10 person, 100 person, 1k (etc) teams really run into with managing merge conflicts?
- What do teams of 1, 10, 100, 1k, etc care the most about?
- How does the modern "agent explosion" potentially affect this?
For example, my experience working in the 1-100 regime tells me that, for the most part, the kind of merge conflict being presented here is resolved by assigning subtrees of code to specific teams. For the large part, merge conflicts don't happen, because teams coordinate (in sprints) to make orthogonal changes, and long-running stale branches are discouraged.
However, if we start to mix in agents, a 100 person team could quickly jump into a 1000 person team, esp if each person is using subagents making micro commits.
It's an interesting idea definitely, but without real-world data, it kind of feels like this is just delivering a solution without a clear problem to assign it to. Like, yes merge-conflicts are a bummer, but they happen infrequently enough that it doesn't break your heart.
> What do teams of 1, 10, 100, 1k, etc care the most about?
Oh god no! That would be about the worst way to do it.
Just make it conceptually sound.
Engineer A intended value = 1
Engineer B intended value = 2
CRDT picks 2
The outcome could be semantically wrong. It doesn't reflect the intent.
I think the primary issue with git and every other version control is the terrible names for everything. pull, push, merge, fast forward, stash, squash, rebase, theirs, ours, origin, upstream and that's just a subset. And the GUI's. They're all very confusing even to engineers who have been doing this for a decade. On top of this, conflict resolution is confusing because you don't have any prior warnings.
It would be incredibly useful if before you were about to edit a file, the version control system would warn you that someone else has made changes to it already or are actively working on it. In large teams, this sort of automation would reduce conflicts, as long as humans agree to not touch the same file. This would also reduce the amount of quality regressions that result from bad conflict resolutions.
Shameless self plug: I am trying to solve both issues with a simpler UI around git that automates some of this and it's free. https://www.satishmaha.com/BetterGit
How, or better yet, why would Git warn you about a potential conflict beforehand, when the use case is that everyone has a local clone of the repo and might be driving it towards different directions? You are just supposed to pull commits from someone's local branch or push towards one, hence the wording. The fact that it makes sense to cooperate and work on the same direction, to avoid friction and pain, is just a natural accident that grows from the humans using it, but is not something ingrained in the design of the tool.
We're collectively just using Git for the silliest and simplest subset of its possibilities -a VCS with a central source of truth-, while bearing the burden of complexity that comes with a tool designed for distributed workloads.
Bringing me back to my VSS days (and I'd much rather you didn't)
> A CRDT merge always succeeds by definition, so there are no conflicts in the traditional sense — the key insight is that changes should be flagged as conflicting when they touch each other, giving you informative conflict presentation on top of a system which never actually fails. This project works that out.
It has clear contradiction. Crdt always succeed by definition, no conflicts in traditional sense so (rephrasing) conflicting changes are marked as conflicted. Emm, like in any other source control?
In fact, after rereading that intro while writing that answer I start suspect at least smell of an ai writing.
So as long as all updates have been sent to the server from all clients, it will know what “time” each character changed and be able to merge automatically.
Is that it basically?
i think that's where version control is going. especially useful with agents and CI
What I do think is the critical challenge (particularly with Git) is scalability.
Size of repository & rate of change of repositories are starting to push limits of git, and I think this needs revisited across the server, client & wire protocols.
What exactly, I don't know. :). But I do know that in my current role (mid-size well-known tech company) is hitting these limits today.
The goal should be to build a full spec and then build a code forge and ecosystem around this. If it’s truly great, adoption will come. Microsoft doing a terrible job with GitHub is great for new solutions.
I really wonder what kinds of magical AI you're using, because in my experience, Claude Code chokes and chokes hard on complex rebases/merge conflicts to the point that I couldn't trust it anymore.
git config --global merge.conflictstyle diff3
I recently built Artifact: https://www.paganartifact.com/benny/artifact
Mirror: https://github.com/bennyschmidt/artifact
In case anyone was curious what a full rewrite of git would look like in Node!
The main difference is that on the server I only store deltas, not files, and the repo is “built”.
But yeah full alternative to git with familiar commands, and a hub to go with it.
Developers are quite familiar with Merge Conflicts and the confusing UI that git (and SVN before it, in my experience) gives you about them. The "ours vs theirs" nomenclature which doesn't help, etc. This is something that VCSs can improve on, QED this post.
Vs the scenario you're describing (what I call Logical Conflicts), where two changes touching different parts of the code (so it doesn't emerge as a Merge Conflict) but still breaking each other. Like one change adding a function call in one file but another change changing the API in a different file.
These are painful in a different way, and not something that a simple text-based version control (which is all of the big ones) can even see.
Indeed, CRDTs do not help with Logical Conflicts.
IE if I change something in my data model, that change & context could be surfaced with agentic tooling.
conflict free merging sounds cool, but doesn't that just mean that that a human review step is replaced by "changes become intervals rather than collections of lines" and "last set of intervals always wins"? seems like it makes sense when the conflicts are resolved instantaneously during live editing but does it still make sense with one shot code merges over long intervals of time? today's systems are "get the patch right" and then "get the merge right"... can automatic intervalization be trusted?
edit: actually really interesting if you think about it. crdts have been proven with character at a time edits and use of the mouse select tool.... these are inherently intervalized (select) or easy (character at a time). how does it work for larger patches can have loads of small edits?
Well, isn't that what the CRDT does in its own data structure ?
Also keep in mind that syntactic correctness doesn't mean functional correctness.
There are many ways to instantiate a CRDT, and a trivial one would be "last write wins" over the whole source tree state. LWW is obviously not what you'd want for source version control. It is "correct" per its own definition, but it is not useful.
Anyone saying "CRDTs solve this" without elaborating on the specifics of their CRDT is not saying very much at all.
Take a docx, write the file, parse it into entities e.g. paragraph, table, etc. and track changes on those entities instead of the binary blob. You can apply the same logic to files used in game development.
The hard part is making this fast enough. But I am working on this with lix [0].
Started with the machine learning use case for datasets and model weights but seeing a lot of traction in gaming as well.
Always open for feedback and ideas to improve if you want to take it for a spin!
Partial checkouts are awkward at best, LFS locks are somehow still buggy and the CLI doesn't support batched updates. Checking the status of a remote branch vs your local (to prevent conflicts) is at best a naive polling.
Better rebase would be a nice to have but there's still so much left to improve for trunk based dev.
Is it actually okay to try to merge changes to binaries? If two people modify, say, different regions of an image file (even in PNG or another lossless compression format), the sum of the visual changes isn't necessarily equal to the sum of the byte-level changes.
When I was screwing around with the Git file format, tricks I would use to save space like hard-linking or memory-mapping couldn't work, because data is always stored compressed after a header.
A general copy-on-write approach to save checkout space is presumably impossible, but I wonder what other people have traveled down similar paths have concluded.
Funny, there was just a post a couple of days ago how this is false.
It's been amazing watching it grow over the last few years.
You can choose to have a workflow where you're never directly editing any commit to "gain back autonomy" of the working copy; and if you really want to, with some scripting, you can even emulate a staging area with a specially-formatted commit below the working copy commit.
It's not the same as capturing it, but I would also note that there are a wide wide variety of ways to get 3-way merges / 3 way diffs from git too. One semi-recent submission (2022 discussing a 2017) discussed diff3 and has some excellent comments (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31075608), including a fantastic incredibly wide ranging round up of merge tools (https://www.eseth.org/2020/mergetools.html).
However/alas git 2.35's (2022) fabulous zdiff3 doesn't seems to have any big discussions. Other links welcome but perhaps https://neg4n.dev/blog/understanding-zealous-diff3-style-git...? It works excellently for me; enthusiastically recommended!
Slightly disappointed to see that it is a 470 line python file being touted as "future of version control". Plenty of things are good enough in 470 lines of python, even a merge conflict resolver on top of git - but it looks like it didn't want anything to do with git.
Prototyping is almost free these days, so not sure why we only have the barest of POC here.
If you haven’t resolved conflicts then it probably doesn’t compile and of course tests won’t pass, so I don’t see any point in publishing that change? Maybe the commit is useful as a temporary state locally, but that seems of limited use?
Nowadays I’d ask a coding agent to figure out how to rebase a local branch to the latest published version before sending a pull request.
Is it just lack of tooling, or is there something fundamentally better about line-oriented diffs that I’m missing? For the purpose of this question I’m considering line-oriented as a special case of AST-oriented where the AST is a list of lines (anticipating the response of how not all changes are syntactically meaningful or correct).